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Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007

Are video games art?  That seems to be the question of the decade, and practically everyone has an opinion on the matter.  As this debate keeps raging both among the industry moguls and among the players in forums, it seems that it's often the artists themselves who are their own worst enemy in the defense of their work.  The creator of Mega Man, Keiji Inafune, joins the ranks of many great video game artists in trying to deny their ... identity as artists.  Take a look at this recent quote from Keiji Inafune at http://kotaku.com/gaming/keiji-inafune/gdc07-capcoms-inafune-slams-clover-producer-242796.php :

Keiji Inafune wrote:
Perhaps I might get into trouble if I say this in front of people from the mass media. Games are not a work of art. It's actually a product. If we think of it as a work of art, then... when we think about Picasso and Van Gogh's paintings, the end result is beauty, so it doesn't matter if you sell it or not. However for games, it's a product. It is a commodity. The producer has to think about that.We must because that's what they are.  Not to call them what they are, in this case art, is to inaccurately represent art.  Is there a dichotomy here?  Certainly!  But it's not a relevant dichotomy in determining what is and what is not art -- it only differentiates between different mediums of expression.

I realize that Inafune's primary point was not to throw video games out of the art arena, but rather to make an argument for marketing games properly.  Regardless, I think he touched on some of this anyway by accepting some of these faulty premises.  Games must be marketed, but so must art.  Beethoven didn't put on his symphonies with zero advertisements.  Nor did Shakespeare put on plays without tacking flyers on every wall.  When authors like Hugo and Dickens wrote a new novel, do you think they didn't have advertising?  Announcements were made.  Newspapers reported their upcoming novels.  Inafune's statements about Picasso and Van Gogh are particularly out of touch given that both of these men fully intended to SELL their works, with the former becoming quite wealthy doing just that.

This kind of statement is more than just a description of a sane business model, which by itself is perfectly reasonable.  Unfortunately, Inafune goes much farther by introducing what many in philosophy know as the dreaded art and entertainment dichotomy.  Besides being infamously indefensible and patently destructive to any medium of art caught up in its black hole of anti-reason, this is the very dichotomy that fuels the constant "us vs. them" attitudes between those artists producing so-called "great art" and those producing "popular entertainment".  It does this slight of hand to grand extremes, as if the two were so mutually exclusive that they are as separated as East is from West.  The recognition of the realities of the economic system that art is made around could have been easily made without presenting this dichotomy, but that unfortunately isn't what happened here.  Inafune apparently had to make the implication that unless it is totally unconcerned with that economic system, then it becomes something other than art.

I am very weary of hearing these statements, coming initially from critics and now increasingly from video game artists themselves, that art has to be something so elevated that we can only see it from a distance, as if it is something that common "unelevated" men couldn't relate to or even, *gasp*, enjoy without this admiration pouring out some "anti-art" taint onto the subject matter.  It's nothing new, as we see it in many other artistic mediums.  It's unfortunate that so many things we call art today are things that many of us cannot directly relate to without having to imagine circumstances other than our own.  For instance, every single one of my favorite operas, such as Don Giovanni or Le Nozze di Figaro, were once simple theater pieces that the masses related to far more than those who commissioned their composition.  It wasn't unknown for a common ditch digger to whistle arias from Figaro or drinking buddies to even sing an aria from Don Giovanni on the streets.  Heck, Figaro itself was a controversial play before it was ever an opera -- a play that some believe spoke to the concerns of the French lower classes so starkly that it helped to fuel the French Revolution.  They were pieces that were as relevant for their day as certain movies we watch or games we play are to us today.  Yet the simple fact that men today don't as easily relate to the themes of these past works somehow makes them "art" in the minds of many, while something they can more easily relate to can't achieve that status until they die off and the subject matter becomes remote again.  It's a strange distinction to push, if only because it makes the status of "art" inversely proportional to the dwindling relevance a work in any given medium has for its most timely audience.

So many things we think of today as high art were considered to be simple entertainment in the time that they were conceived by the men who are now known as artists.  In the days when Shakespeare, Marlowe, and a bevy of others were writing epic and frivilous plays for the stages, they were doing so for the common people on the streets far more than for the royalty and noblemen.  It was, in fact, many (though not all) of the well-educated in positions of authority who considered these endeavors to be too common even for the commoners.  In Mozart's day, he was considered to be crass and crude, his operas too playful, his choice of subjects too disrespectful, and his music too childish.  In his day, you went to the theater to watch his operas wearing your most common clothes, with the intent on dancing and singing in the aisles.  Today by contrast, we watch him while dressed in three-piece suits and keeping our mouths shut, making sure that proper respect to this "high art" is paid in commensurate discomfort.  Dickens and Hugo wrote literature for commoners, despite being viewed now as required reading for a serious class on literature as "high art".

I could throw out a dozen more examples, but none of that would convince the snobs who decry anything which could possibly entertain as art.  I suppose I've had enough of the would-be high artists who decry capitalism because their works don't sell, but I think, especially lately, that my real beef is with those in the world of entertainment who embrace the asanine judgements of their craft as less than artistic.  This kind of sanction of the victim can never be positive, especially to those of us who see a bright future for the artistic medium of video game development.  The question is this: just what is it that allows these individuals to exclude video games from the category of art?

In the early days of film, movies and films were just not taken seriously by the art-loving public at large.  It was considered much more personal to watch a play.  Most felt that you could get more out of a live production for no other reason than that there was an intimacy between a cast that had to face a very finite audience than film acting could ever hope to achieve on a more abstract level.  The theater additionally had an artistic merit attached to it -- it was more than just entertainment in the eyes of many.  It was very serious business.  On the contrary, it was common for many critics of the day to treat film as less than art.  Yet, here we are today with film trumping most stage productions in their ability to effectively tell a story.  And now, film is not excluded from the arena of art, nor are film makers considered less than artists.

So what happened?  Film still has that same limitation today that it had back then, but those involved in creating films have instead concentrated on its strengths, such as the ability to present a more wide-scale telling of a tale, the ability to impress more direct realism into a given situation, and being able to plan and execute every detail of a scene over and over until the result is exactly as the artists involved envision.  The fixed medium that is film came with both handicaps and advantages. There is less intimacy, and thus more detachment in film than the live stage, but there is also the power to be more effective than the stage in at least as many ways as the stage originally was perceived to have over film.  Film advanced as a medium at a rate proportional to the rate at which artists learned to use the strengths of the medium.

Video games have more than a passive chance at becoming a medium with not only the same marketing power as film, but also its own unique artistic power to tell a story.  Video games in particular have a potential that film cannot have to the same degree -- the potential to break the fourth wall.  They naturally treat the player as an active participant.  They can, through their presentation, either shield the player from the "realities" they present or actively involve him in them.  Video games can effectively tell a story by playing the player.  That's a potential that remains only rarely tapped in these youthful days of the craft, but its possibilities seem endless to the casual observer who takes the medium seriously.

Ultimately, no number of pontificating critics who have never bothered to examine the medium seriously will be able to hold those video game developing artists back from developing their art to their own exacting specifications.  Anyone who thinks those critics will be the biggest road block needs to rethink that position.  The bigger concern is what we've seen in the comments by Inafune along with those of many other video game development artists in recent years.  If they aren't taking their own art seriously, why should the critics?  If they don't know they are artists, then how can any of us?

Category: Editorial
Posted by m0zart, 11:13pm
16 Comments | Post a Comment

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More than any Rembrandt, Beethoven, or Welles piece, I enjoy the artistic bliss that comes from stabbing the **** out of a cyclops' eye in God of War. Then, I can go onto XBL and have a discussion with my fellow connoisseurs about it while we "pwn some n00bs" during a rousing match of Halo 2.
Posted Mar 22, 2007 7:35 am PT
I don't know if I sense any direct sarcasm in that comment, but I *think* I do.

If I were to suggest to you that movies like Amadeus are not art simply because movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre exist, would you take that kind of claim seriously? Would Les Miserables be something other than art when they go up against Daniel Steele's latest soft porn with a hunk's likeness strapped to the front-cover?

If I've misunderstood you, then for sure I apologize, but I've heard arguments like this before, and they were never very persuasive in trying to disqualify video games as an artistic medium.
Posted Mar 22, 2007 8:13 am PT
Well put m0zart. I believe however that the artistic potential in games lies in the feelings associated with gameplay not the narrative. For example Rez helps you to feel "evolution" and Killer 7 causes you to really feel the violence and comfort from it as it fills a nihilistic void. Gameplay is more comparable to instrumental music for its abstract but direct feeling-based expression. Think of plot as lyrics. Essentially games are tone poems.
Posted Mar 22, 2007 1:14 pm PT
And also, that's a poor example. Maybe hop into Oblivion, Okami, Zelda, games that have astounding detail. The world of Ivalice, the story conveyed in Dreamfall. After absorbing these breathtaking experiences, do you feel they are any less then art? Don't you?
Posted Mar 22, 2007 1:16 pm PT
I do think that many's view on this has been 'colored,' perhaps, by the industries' early years. At least on the 'not art' side, where video games were often considered just a fun little diversion 'for kiddies,' rather than a multi-million dollar industry that can throw it's weight around when it needs to.
In a way, it's like Nintendo and it's 'kiddy image.' Despite the SNES, Gamecube and even the Wii carrying more than 'family-friendly games,' there are still people out there who view it as 'kiddy.'

I do think that there are varying levels to this argument, as well. If people can view 'Kill Bill' as a cinematic masterpiece (it's fun, but not THAT good), then why not Gears of War or God of War II - which go a step further and make the player do the actions almost flawlessly...
...and looking beautiful while doing it?

However, I do think more arguments could be made for the 'artsy' games, like Ico, Shadow of the Colossus and Okami than the more 'mainstream' games like Madden.
After all, the snooty people who seem to judge art love the non-mainstream like it's some awkward fountain of youth.

Honestly, though, it's really just in the eye of the beholder - even if the beholder(s) in this case more-or-less control how many view the games in question. -_-
Posted Mar 23, 2007 8:58 am PT
great editorial ! You're totally right
Posted Mar 23, 2007 1:25 pm PT
The thing I don't understand is why everyone around the industry (critics, players, etc) tries so desperately to ensure that games are recognized as art. Are we all so insecure about spending our time doing something we enjoy that we have to wail at anybody who passes nearby "Don't worry, it's art"? If the mainstream don't regard games as art, and some developers seem not to, and the situation doesn't change in the next fifty years, are you as a game player going to look back and think you've wasted part of your life because your chosen form of entertainment hasn't been tagged as art? As I tried to say in my editorial on the matter, I wish people would stop trying to cheapen great entertainment by calling it art.
Posted Mar 24, 2007 6:01 pm PT
metagnome wrote:
The thing I don't understand is why everyone around the industry (critics, players, etc) tries so desperately to ensure that games are recognized as art. Are we all so insecure about spending our time doing something we enjoy that we have to wail at anybody who passes nearby "Don't worry, it's art"? If the mainstream don't regard games as art, and some developers seem not to, and the situation doesn't change in the next fifty years, are you as a game player going to look back and think you've wasted part of your life because your chosen form of entertainment hasn't been tagged as art?


We try to do this because they ARE art. We do it because to deny them as art is to hurt art, not the other way around.

Nobody truly believes that video games as an industry will go away if these critics and developers don't believe what they do is art. But some of us are bigger art fans than we are fans of video games specifically -- and in many ways for video games to be excluded from the community of art devalues the term "art" in general. You can assume that many of us are defending art first -- video games second.

metagnome wrote:
As I tried to say in my editorial on the matter, I wish people would stop trying to cheapen great entertainment by calling it art.


See what I mean? You personally view art in exactly the way I described above. Art, to you, is just an afterthought to video games. You would almost rather eschew the moniker completely. What does that say for art when you suggest that applying the term to video games "devalues" it?

As I've said, this is about more than video games. This is about protecting the integrity of what "art" is as a term and what the community of art should comprise. That community is literally one of the most politicized out there, and it deserves to be brought down to its roots after years of being evaporated to the ether.

Art is NOTHING more than one or more creative people expressing a set of metaphysical values in a given medium. Art is NOT inapproachable, ungraspable, or worse, undefineable. When someone tries to wrongly exclude video games from that category, they are literally devaluating "art" as a term. The result is that it cheapens the term "art", making it seem like some kind of ethereal mystical term, rather than actually devaluing video games as a form of entertainment.

And as a fan of art and video games, I don't want to see that happen.
Posted Mar 25, 2007 1:09 pm PT
Ultimately, art is defined by its audience. What is art, and what isn't art? This question is hard to answer, and even the "snob" high-artist or art critics’ debate on those themselves. The core of the problem is not whether the art world has retreated to its ivory tower or if the economy should be considered as a factor. With those things out of the equation, we still have one issue to solve, and that is the definition of art... we cannot define art clearly.

So, is it fair to say a painting is not art, if I can come up with a valid argument? Maybe, but that will not change the fact that the majority of the world will consider painting as a form of art. Same thing goes with sculpture, photography... grab someone from the sidewalk and ask this question. If they have never given much thought to it before, or they do make a living by researching similar subject, they are going to tell you what history has taught them: yes painting is art, yes sculpture is art, and yes photography is art.

Camera was invented not so long ago, but photography is now considered as an art form. I begin to wonder: what happened in photography that made it an art today, but didn't, or hasn't yet happen in the world of video game? We can expand this line of thought on any subject matter in the art world, but I find photograph to be the easiest to relate to. Also, the movies, of course, but for the argument's sake, one example will be sufficient.

What was the original purpose of photography? Journalism perhaps benefited from it the most. Though the newspapers still replied on plate etching or stone lithography due to the limitation of printing process, individual photographs for Civil War demonstrated its capability to represent events at the other side of the world like no others before it. But its impact on the art world, at the time, was also tremendous. Many painters made desperate statements such as "the painting is dead." Simply because the focus at the time for a good painting is to portray images realistically, and photography was a quicker and better way of doing it.

Painting certainly didn't die. Instead, freed from perusing realism as their only goal, many new genres were created. It was not a coincidence when impressionism, cubism, modernism, post-modernism and abstract-expressionism were all born within one hundred years after the invention of camera. Photography, as a new medium, closed a dead end of the art world and subsequently opened many new ones. This is a new technology that contributed to art, and later accepted as art itself. Can video game become a form of art, like photography did? A new medium cannot simply come in and say, hey, I'm art! Certain people might consider the movement of one's wrist when using the mouse to be some kind of alternative dance... is a dance festival based on wrist movement when using a mouse going to be justified? I personally like to do laundry, and watching those wet clothes spin in the washer often gives me deep thoughts... but how does everyone else feel about that?

For me, if I consider doing laundry as art, no one can tell me otherwise. But if you want the rest of the world, or at least the majority of it, consider certain things as art, you have to do a lot more than that. When you say art is nothing more than a few creative people expressing metaphorical ideas, you are judging art through its definition, but a definition like that is so broad it is almost useless. Just as art cannot ignore economy, you cannot ignore its community. And the truth is simple: if there aren't enough people considering video game as an art form, it isn't. We live in a generation that most of the art authorities don't even know how to surf the web without getting Trojans in their hard drive. There is no way these people will ever understand what's so artistic about a video game. Also, if now I have an idea, and I would love to express it through a video game... how do I go by doing that? Can I start programming a game right away? Do a little 3d modeling, write a game engine, paint some textures, do some voice acting and record some special effects. And Microsoft, EA, or THQ are already lining up to showcase my latest "artwork" to the community around the world. How would they view my artwork? They certain wouldn't simply judge my artwork through some simple terms or standards, such as if the visual is amazing, or if it was fun to look at... the gamers will be constantly looking for the metaphorical meaning in my game, my lament to the social injustice, the contrivance of life, and such...

Or maybe they do just look for that kind of stuff. Oh noes, now Microsoft and the likes don't want to publish my work anymore. With this kind of mainstream audience, how is my work going to be art anytime soon? With this kind of inaccessibility, how can anyone ever understand the artistic side of the creation process?

But don't get me wrong. I am not here to tell you game isn't art. I am here to tell you it is. It simply needs time. When photography was first invented, people thought it was fun, and nothing more. It is through lots of experimentation, and through its popularity, that it found its directions, and evolved from mere entertainment to a medium that can express metaphorical ideas well. It has gone through the technology phase, and there was a few generations to soak it all in.

Video games need the same thing. It needs time, and it needs to be a popular medium, not just a popular product. We don't have a large enough community of game makers to make video game an art yet. But no experience has ever been as stimulating as video games, and it has great potentials. But for now, video games aren't art. Not yet.
Posted Mar 27, 2007 11:11 pm PT
So, in a room full of morons, the intelligent person is wrong by way of majority rule. Ok, so that's a gross oversimplification, and your point was well-made. But still, that's generally how I feel about statements like that. Popularity defines some things. Other things, it doesn't. To me, art falls in the latter - it is not defined by popular opinion. Here's another gross over-simplification: what's right isn't always what's popular, and what's popular isn't always what's right.
Posted Mar 30, 2007 12:42 pm PT
yian wrote:
Ultimately, art is defined by its audience. What is art, and what isn't art? This question is hard to answer, and even the "snob" high-artist or art critics’ debate on those themselves. The core of the problem is not whether the art world has retreated to its ivory tower or if the economy should be considered as a factor. With those things out of the equation, we still have one issue to solve, and that is the definition of art... we cannot define art clearly.


What you are trying to do here is describe "art" as a term that can't have any objective meaning by turning into a floating abstraction. It's a common way to win an argument through semantics by constantly moving the definition of "art" around whenever your points aren't gelling. Obviously I can't treat "art" as a floating abstraction, because I don't consider it to be a meaningless term. I can define it clearly: Art is the communication of metaphysical values through a given medium. To have claimed that folding your clothes in a private setting is "art" (as you go on to do) is a grand indication of this attempt at trivializing the term.

Characterizing art by an audience was your first mistake. Art is *not* defined by the audience. The term "art" also isn't defined by the artist. Art is defined in the way I described above. An artist who achieves the substance of that definition has created a work of art.

yian wrote:
So, is it fair to say a painting is not art, if I can come up with a valid argument? Maybe, but that will not change the fact that the majority of the world will consider painting as a form of art.


A majority of the world considering painting as art or not art won't change its identity as art one iota. It either is a communication of metaphysical values, or it is not. For that matter, plugging my ears won't turn a phone call into an armadillo.

yian wrote:
Video games need the same thing. It needs time, and it needs to be a popular medium, not just a popular product. We don't have a large enough community of game makers to make video game an art yet. But no experience has ever been as stimulating as video games, and it has great potentials. But for now, video games aren't art. Not yet.


I take issue with practically everything you said here, but this last comment is one of the worst in your response. It is tantamount to turning art into a collectivist enterprise. Art is not a collectivist achievement. It is the achievement of the artist or artists. To grant it that title, or to take that title away for that matter, based on a will of a majority of viewers, would be to treat "art" as a term approximately equivalent to "meaningless". It is a worse insult to the artist and a worse misuse of the term "art" than even your semantical attempts at floating abstractions above.

It's obvious that the public, in its 20th century regression regarding these matters, needs time to recognize any new medium as art. But that says nothing for the identity of the source material as art. Those properties are metaphysical, not epistemological.
Posted Mar 30, 2007 1:02 pm PT
A conversation has been going on between Yian and I since the response he gave to this editorial brought my heated response. It was posted on his blog, and I felt it was only fair to post it here on my blog as well.

Yian wrote:
Wait, sorry if I misunderstood something here... Isn't art trivial? I mean, some people make art, then some people sell them, and some people buy them... what else is going on with art? Isn't art just like everything else in life? Well, I'm sorry if art isn't trivial to you, but i usually eat food and drink water first, then maybe i want to have fun with my girlfriend, then I think about art and entertainment. Art is only for rich people, man, it is trivial to the core...


I don't consider art to be frivolous in the least. I don't think that just because it is not concerned with survival, that it is not important in the vast scheme of things. I don't relegate human beings to the level of an animal -- something that lives only for survival, and survives strictly by instinct. Man to me is something more than just an animal -- he's a rational animal -- a creature that doesn't work merely to survive, but works and survives in order to live and enjoy life -- a creature that must live not by instinct but by his creative mind.

Yian wrote:
By now you must have realized that we are not communicating, because we are not talking about the same art here. You probably thought my entry was a critique on yours, so you broke mine into paragraphs and attempted to find all my mistakes... No, M0zart, I was talking about art as a generalized, trivial thing, and you were talking about the essence of art. Of course everything will be wrong through your definition, because it is.


Actually, I think just the opposite is true. I think the definitions I read in your post, sarcastic or not, are what makes "art" into a term that can never be correctly applied. For me, "art" is all about a man communicating something he considers important to the world at large. He may not be able to communicate his thoughts in exactly the same way as others, but he finds a medium to do it in. And each medium has its own strengths and weaknesses. The best artists master them to the point that they can exploit his chosen medium(s) to their limits.

Yian wrote:
Read the second paragraph: "So, is it fair to say a painting is not art, if I can come up with a valid argument? Maybe, but that will not change the fact that the majority of the world will consider painting as a form of art. Same thing goes with sculpture, photography... grab someone from the sidewalk and ask this question. If they have never given much thought to it before, or they do make a living by researching similar subject, they are going to tell you what history has taught them: yes painting is art, yes sculpture is art, and yes photography is art." Here, I made it perfectly clear that this is what I believe to be the reason people have hard time accepting video game as art. The whole blog was supposed to describe something, not to define something. How could you not have realized where I was going with this? The whole blog is about how people ignore the essence of art, but choose to follow the society's more generalized idea of art.


You might be right that I didn't get your sarcasm. Well that's actually lousy of me to say it like that -- I definitely didn't get your sarcasm. I couldn't quite tell what was being said, so I held off on responding for a while. It wasn't until another friend read your response and took it the same way I did initially that I decided to respond in kind. I can't see inflections in this type of writing, and so I missed the sarcasm. I apologize for that.

Yian wrote:
Seriously... I tried to wrote something to make people realize how unbalanced the idea of art is in today's general public, but ended up being fired at. What was supposed to endorse M0zart's point of view ended up making myself look really stupid.


Yian, the last thing I wanted to do was make you look (or feel, for that matter) stupid. I think you are very well written, and you communicate well too. I am just not always going to be able to perfectly surmise what someone is getting at in their post. I took it to heart that I had to defend "art" here, because I consider it worth defending.

I realize that sometimes I come across as combative when dealing with thoughts and ideas, but that's just because ideas are the most important thing to me in our existence as human beings. Ideas aren't just the result of our feeding and watering ourselves to the point that we are energetic enough to come up with them -- ideas are in fact what feed and water us in the first place. We aren't born with the kind of instinctual charms that other creatures are. We don't have claws or fur or razor-sharp teeth. We wouldn't survive in almost any outer environment without our ability to think above instinct. The only thing we have is our rational mind, which gives us the ability to not just live with our environment, an environment we aren't completely suited to survive in, but manipulate it to the point that we can not only survive, but live and thrive. This particular idea, art, is to me something so important because it represents what it is to "thrive" -- it is a term that refers to an intensive and romantic method for revealing our ideas on many levels that mere communication through conversation could never achieve.

So I defended "art" in a way that you are probably not used to. I do think we are talking about a different "art", but I also think that's part of the problem -- and I think you aptly pointed out that you agree with that sentiment in the private message you wrote me. I appreciate that, truly.
Posted Mar 31, 2007 9:51 pm PT
What the heck is up with the walls of text in the comments?! No need to copy and paste them directly here, sure give me a link to yian's blog or things like that, but let's chill with the advertising

I can't believe people think Ico and SOTC can be considered as art. They're just glorified interactive concept art tech demos. I know I'll get flamed for that, but if those games aren't playable or fun, I can't consider them as art or entertainment. Over-rated games.

But the real thought-provoking question of this blog is: What games do you consider are art?
Posted Apr 3, 2007 8:53 am PT
digi_matrix wrote:
What the heck is up with the walls of text in the comments?! No need to copy and paste them directly here, sure give me a link to yian's blog or things like that, but let's chill with the advertising


Why don't you chill with calling pulling up the section of the text I am responding to as "advertising".

digi_matrix wrote:
I can't believe people think Ico and SOTC can be considered as art. They're just glorified interactive concept art tech demos. I know I'll get flamed for that, but if those games aren't playable or fun, I can't consider them as art or entertainment. Over-rated games.


Art is not a value judgement. Art is a kind of thing, as I said before, not a degree of good or bad. Whether it's good art, or bad art, well that *is* a value judgement. But it has no effect on whether or not it is art. It is.

digi_matrix wrote:
But the real thought-provoking question of this blog is: What games do you consider are art?


Anything that communicates values through a medium is art. Any game that fits that mold is therefore art.

This is one of the problems I think that occurs with the definition of art for may people. Something that is created by a human being either is or isn't art. We don't get to declare it as art or not as art, we can only really observe and identify. Not even the artist can declare what he does art. It has to be a communication of values through a medium, or cannot be "undeclared" art, even if a thousand critics did it.

Now, whether the art has any value to you personally -- that is a value judgement against the art. Remeber, "art" is a kind of thing, not a degree of value. That something is "art" is a metaphysical statement. That an individual gets value from the art (or conversely, doesn't) is a personal judgement.

For instance, you took issue with "Ico" and "Shadow of the Colossus" being works of art because you considered them unplayable and not entertaining. I don't think that diqualifies them as art at all, because you are simply expressing a personal value judgement -- how these items relate to you is not a disqualifier for whether or not they are "art", because something being "art" is not a personal judgement. It is a metaphysical reality.

And on the converse, I don't have the same opinion of "Ico" or "Shadow of the Colossus" as you do. I thought they were very playable, despite some obvious flaws, and I enjoyed them both thoroughly. Having said that, even my judgement on them in that vein doesn't qualify them as art. The only thing that qualifies them as art is that they are legitimate communications of the values of one or more artists. I might not identify with those values personally, but that's neither here nor there.
Posted Apr 3, 2007 9:13 am PT
But what games do you think are good art? Wrong question, what are the best games you've ever played? Or your most favourite games? Just askin'. About the comments, I found the huge walls of text in the comments to be bewildering, but fair comment maybe I was too harsh on calling them ads. I can see you have a different view on games, and on your reviews, being extremely unbiased unlike most of us.
Posted Apr 3, 2007 9:18 am PT
It's probably difficult to be unbiased when a game has evoked your emotion, you would think.
Posted Apr 4, 2007 12:19 pm PT
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