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Wednesday, Nov 21, 2007

Oblivion Syndrome

I've noticed, lately, that many games seem to be suffering from the dreaded 'Oblivion Syndrome'.

No, I don't mean that the games give you a meaningless Horse Armour download. No, I don't mean that they have Sean Bean in a starring role (although that, at least, wouldn't be such a bad thing). I don't even mean that they aim slightly higher than they achieve.

No, I'm talking about the bane of console Oblivioners lives: Dynamic encounter scaling.

For the uninitiated, let me explain in non-medical terms. In Oblivion, the creatures in the world adapt to your level. So, when you're a neophyte adventurer taking your first steps, you might find a necromancer's apprentice lurking near some ancient ruins. If you were to visit those same ruins later in the game, the apprentice might be a fully-fledged Necromancer now, offering you more of a challenge. Go to the ruins when you're a mighty, renowned hero, and you'll find twelve Necromancers and an undead horde.

And yes, this kind of scaling does indeed ensure that the game gives you an even challenge as you progress throughout it. No area is off-limits because its inhabitants are too difficult to defeat, and you're always going to have a good fight ahead.

Where it doesn't make sense though, is that you end up with basic bandits with full daedric armour and oversized magical axes bearing down on you every time you leave a village, and entire cavern networks full of minotaur lords. And yes, they're a more even challenge. But they're also rather unfeasible from a logical point of view (as if logic applies to games, I hear you cry), and, moreover, they devoid you of any sense of advancement as a character.

Call me old fashioned, or just a little sadistic, but I actually like the feeling in traditional RPGs where there are areas that you just can't really go yet because the inhabitants are too powerful for you- yet. I like going back to early areas of the game and seeing just how strong my characters have become now since I first went there. Sure, it can mean that open-ended games are a little hit-and-miss with how they present their enemies, as you could wonder into a dungeon full of liche lords that tear you to shreds. But equally, you might enter a cavern full of pathetic goblins which you can slaughter while laughing heartily. And that, for me, is some of the thrill- you never really know what you're going to face through the next door. Morrowind balanced this expertly, and you knew when you really shouldn't be going to another area by the way a frenzied Guar would suddenly tear you to shreds.

But love it or hate it, Oblivion Syndrome is here to stay, it seems. And moreover, its spreading. Already the Syndrome has become widespread amongst certain RPGs. And it's starting to cross genre boundaries too. Could we have a nigh-impossible Syndrome epidemic on our hands? We sent Asian reporter Trisha Takanawa to find out.

"Thanks Splinter, but I have no idea what you're talking about."

Ok... Thanks for that, Trisha. Well, I guess that sums it up, doesn't it? She hasn't noticed it. In fact, a lot of you probably haven't noticed it. But nevertheless, its sneaking in to our gaming lives. Puzzle Quest is the first key example I can think of, but you'll also see examples of it throughout RPG titles like the Witcher and even Two Worlds, although with Two Worlds its less of an issue since most of the enemies are easy anyway. But it seems like the concept of dynamic scaling is here to stay. Perhaps it's a good thing. Perhaps it's easier for the developers to implement, rather than set out placement for creature types dependent on game world region. Perhaps.

And yet... I'm still not convinced that I like the idea of a humble bandit stalking the outskirts of a rural village, sheltering in some abandoned ruins, leaping out at you with his shiny glass armour and glowing magical sword.

Maybe I'm taking the whole thing too seriously. I don't know. But I know for sure that I don't like the idea of this spreading across too many games. Like I said before, I'm all for more difficult creatures popping up as you go through the game. But I want my sense of advancement back, too. And, while you're at it, how about some more games with great, emotionally involving storylines, too?

But that's another issue, and another blog post, I fear.

Category: Editorial
Posted by STARS_Splinter, 6:52am
40 Comments | Post a Comment

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Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:23 am PT
I agree. I liked finding ridiculously high leveled enemies in FF12, and running very, very fast.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:28 am PT
I agree wholly. Scaled level encounters like this really hurt Oblivion in my eyes, and I can't play it without mods that fix the problem.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:48 am PT
i made a stealth/archer type character in oblivion. i loved the gameplay and sidequests of that game, and it was very fun. but i hated the fact that everything in the game could kill me if i didn't be careful every inch of the way, no matter how much i leveled up.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:49 am PT
Well yeah, it's spreading may be an issue, but Oblivions use of leveling was refreshing, and great. It worked perfectly for Oblivion in my opinion, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for all games,
Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:50 am PT
I agree. I killed the unicorn in Oblivion at level 2. The only one in the game, I stumbled upon it while running around, and ruined what could have been a great end game type encounter. I remember in Morrowind I leveled for days to be able to kill Umbra, and had a list of places I was not strong enough to adventure. Going back through that list and clearing those areas was a great accomplishment for me. Oblivion killed that for me, and in my eyes that is why it is the weaker of the two.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:55 am PT
I couldn't agree more. Oblivion was an excellent game don't get me wrong, but i didn't complete it! In fact i came nowhere close to completing it for the very reasons that you have just explained. I got so bored of the same drones of default monsters, and worse, re-used ruins and citadels! Did anyone else find themselves lurking around in an ayleid ruin or cave and get the feeling that you had seen the exact same layout before? What is the point of exploration if it doesn't show you anything new? I only hope that the developers realise that most gamers don't want dynamic encounter scaling and the recycling of dungeon layouts!
Posted Nov 21, 2007 11:55 am PT
First, congratulations on the Soapbox emblem. Second, I too, miss bashing Red Slimes with Erdrick's Sword at level 30. Somehow there is always a feeling of satisfaction when utterly smashing a low-level creature that at one time gave you trouble. I had never really though about it prior to your editorial.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:00 pm PT
Does Martigen's Monster Mod fix this? Anyone? I thought it did.

But, yeah scaling encounters are okay, but their place (back in the day) was random encounters. That used to be the thing. Every RPG had random encounters that were relative pushovers, but there were a LOT of them. That way you could level off of them. SOME games, to make these encounters slightly less useless at higher levels made them scaling.

I think this is a good idea for random encounters. ...I guess in Oblivion's case, this would be a LOT of the encounters. Still dungeons and special areas need to be of a certain level and correspond with certain challenges in the game. Those are meant to be the real testers. Scaling up the random encounters was always just a way to make them not completely boring and annoying once you passed a certain level.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:07 pm PT
Scaling is retarded. There, someone had to say it. It's clearly an easy technique to keep the game time higher than normal, knowing that you can't very well run through any area any longer. There is no justification on the idea, no reason why it would be beneficial, nor enjoyed. It's the console/pc RPG trying ti incorporate grinding into anything but an MMO. I for one, have vowed to never puchase any game that incorporates it. Obviously, I've missed out on Oblivion, but oh well.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:27 pm PT
I loved Oblivion, I played it for about 100 hours but couldnt place why and at what point I just got tired of playing it. i think this explains my feeling towards the game. Its the lack of feeling accomplishment. I still love the game, but it was frustrating, but required do to the leveling system. It was nice, but I wouldnt want to play alot of other titles the same way
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:27 pm PT
The leveling system in Oblivion really helped with the scaling issue, but yes it did also detract from the feeling of actually leveling...I mean what good is LvL 50 when I cant go back to the humble sewers whence I came and really extract my revenge on the little buggers that plagued me
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:42 pm PT
i agree completely with what most everyone has said here. i bought my 360 just for oblivion and ended up not finishing it.......i got close though. i played alot of MMOrpgs. i can remember wondering the beaches in ff11 and coming across those dragon flys that could kill my level 15 character in two hits. and a week later coming back to those beaches and taking them out in 4 hits......felt like sex, felt good.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:47 pm PT
i hope in fallout they dont do this whole scaling thing.....it could really ruin that game.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 12:48 pm PT
For the PC version there are mods that prevent monsters from leveling up with you. And there well done so high level monsters and guards are where they're suppose to be.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 1:03 pm PT
You know, now that you mention it, yeah. I also hate when, in games like dragon warrior, you start out fighting blue blobs. And then after kicking the crap out of some really bad beast like a dragon, you fight the way more powerfull pallet swapped red blobs of death. I wish they would work this out. I also agree with the "how did that bandit get the same weapons and armor I had to beat a necromancer, a divine knight, and the prince of darkness himself for? I would have just killed enough goblins and took their gold to buy them at super weapons are us." Nice original post!
Posted Nov 21, 2007 1:13 pm PT
If I'm not mistaken, the creature leveling in Oblivion is tiered. There will come a point where your character will be far more powerful than the scaled creatures you fight. If all else fails, you can move the difficulty slider in the options panel to suit your liking.

I rather liked this feature, simply because Morrowind was overly difficult in some spots because it wasn't clear what areas were off limits to new characters. I died many horrible deaths poking around "where I wasn't ready" until I gave up completely.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 2:33 pm PT
I think they should lvl up, but stop leveling at a point. you know?
Posted Nov 21, 2007 2:59 pm PT
oh I totally agree with you on this one! Scaled leveling systems killed many games for me (FF8, Oblivion, Dungeon Siege II(a little bit))
Posted Nov 21, 2007 3:13 pm PT
good article
Posted Nov 21, 2007 3:20 pm PT
You're not overreacting, it's absolutely true. And I'm sure many have noticed and loathed it. Thats why I spent so many hundreds of hours in Morrowind where Oblivion bored me very quickly, I felt no impulse to explore because I knew no matter what I fought it would be a hard fight. I have nothing against a challenge, especially in an RPG, but it takes away all sense of advancement and development, when a simple cave rat poses a threat to a level 50 character. You're right, and I'm glad someone has pointed it out.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 3:20 pm PT
The strangest thing about this issue is that The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall had a scaled levelling system very similar to oblivion, which they canned for morrowind, and then they decided it was a good idea again? It admittedly was horrendous in Daggerfall (I once started as a thief, broke into a good general store, and could only steal things worth almost nothing, but as higher level could get decent quality goods). It made certain character types very limited. I used to enjoy the thrill in The Elder Scrolls: Arena where there was almost no level-based scaling, and you could find anything in the random areas, occasionally finding magical armour at the very beggining, or going into a crypt and finding yourself completely out of your depth. It relied on you making sure to be very careful, as a newbie adventurer should be. In Morrowind, I ventured into daedric ruins early on and got slaughtered, and quite rightly so, if it had been easy it would have ruined the expectation of the big battles. There are times when you die, and you havent saved for an hour, you get annoyed, but you have to deal with it. It builds character!
Posted Nov 21, 2007 3:24 pm PT
Damnit, I really wanted to play the Witcher too but if it has that kind of scaling...I don't know.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 5:30 pm PT
The scaled leveling really wrecked some parts of Oblivion, but I tried playing through it again without leveling. This really helps getting around the problem.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 6:14 pm PT
In all senses of the word it really doesn't make sense. I mean... it seems to me that more powerful foes than you would exist whether you were as strong as them or not. Good point, and one I never though about.

I still love Oblivion though.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 6:20 pm PT
Yeah I thought the same thing with Oblivion too, but it was still fun. I just hated taking a couple 100 hits to kill a goblin even though I was level 40 with full daedric armor
Posted Nov 21, 2007 6:35 pm PT
I didn't really have as much of a problem with the scaling as I did with the mindless fetch and retrieve quests...especially with the giant "X marks the spot" map icon practically holding your hand throughout the game.

But yeah, it would have been nice to at least pepper the game with some Ultima Weapon-like monsters seen in Final Fantasy games that require some leveling and planning before fighting...or have only certain enemies, like humans, level with you while keeping other monsters in a much more specific stat parameter.

Though ultimately every character becomes a one-hit kill if you level up right, but still, the option to adjust the game difficulty in real time even takes that necessity away.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 7:36 pm PT
Yeah, having dungeons full of bandits with full Daedric armor was pretty crazy, but my Argonian sorcerer is so powerful that I can play Oblivion like an action game with my Black Hand robes and Longsword of the Inferno, two or three hits and a spell bring most every enemy down. Level scaling can be kind of silly sometimes. It makes the value of rare armor pointless because it will be everywhere after you level up a few times. I don't need to use that Arcane University for enchanting- the stuff i find is better.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 7:51 pm PT
I agree I liked it in games when u were forced to run for your life because when u beat that area you had a sense of acomplishment
Posted Nov 21, 2007 8:35 pm PT
Great reporting TomTucker! My neck hurts from nodding my head so much.... but seriously I agree. Have you ever played The 7th Saga. That game sucked. The enemies were always like 5 levels stronger than you, maybe 10. And if you gained a level, they gained a level too. I guess if you want a challenge that's your game.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 9:01 pm PT
I totaalllllyyy agree. I love the feeling of pwning peoples face who onced pwned my face. Its very rewarding. Theres just something about beating the ingame boss within the first hour of playing a game that I dont like.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 9:03 pm PT
I hate the level scaling in Oblivion, as well. Actually, I find the leveling system in general to be a joke. There goes the mighty warrior, hopping across Cyrodiil like an idiot just to get those last few stat boosts for a new level.

After a while, I just gave up on letting the game give me a "fair" fight. I started a new character, played through the starting dungeon, and bought a new sword from a shop in the capital. I then turned the difficulty slider all the way down and went into the arena. Before the night was over, I had won the title of Grand Champion.
Posted Nov 21, 2007 10:17 pm PT
I agree, this is quite true. BUT if you play modded Oblivion, which is an entirely different game, then you'll find the best rpg experience ever. Francesco's mod totally changes the leveling ingame, with a perfect blend of Morrowind and Oblivion styles. And if you don't like the quest markers (which I hate too) you can remove them and play with a different interface (for instance I created an interface which totally removes quest markers). You can make this game perfect with mods, that's why I'm still playing it and modding for it. I have been playing for 100 hours with my latest character, and I still have to properly begin the main quest.
Posted Nov 22, 2007 8:01 am PT
hahah, oblivion was never really difficult. you could beat it at lvl 1 (if you dont sleep... like, ever) because of the level balence. thats what made the game fun though. sure you dont level up, but your skills still grow.
Posted Nov 22, 2007 10:15 pm PT
to izzytheinsane: If the Witcher was level scaled I honestly didn't even notice, and that was after spending 50+ hours on the game. Actually to be quite honest I don't think it was because my enemies never changed (i.e. when I came back superbuffed up in Chapter 5 I was killing the Drowners (which were hard in Chapter 1) in the swamp in 1-2 hits. So yea the Witcher is not level scaled.
Posted Nov 23, 2007 11:10 am PT
I'll agree with you on this, but if you want somewhat of a challenge in Oblivion, try to make a weak assassin type character or something. For some reason mine is a complete flop when it comes to face to face combat. Then I made a fighter class and he just eats everything in a few swings....mind you he's slow. So it might just be because of your character class, fiddle around with that and it might make the game slightly different for you. Also once you get bored it's always fun to take over the Imperial City by slaughtering the guards
Posted Nov 23, 2007 7:03 pm PT
Yeah, I have to say that level scaling ruined some of the fun of Oblivion, but I don't agree that it is spreading. The Witcher and 2 Worlds are your only ammo for this argument- I have not played the Witcher but 2 Worlds definitely doesn't have as much level scaling as Oblivion. And Foxracing says he didn't notice any level scaling in the Witcher either.
So I'd like to see some more games that have used level scaling to back up your argument please.
Posted Nov 24, 2007 7:20 am PT
I definitely agree, but there is an even more important point to that. Yes, petty thieves with shiny armors are ridiculous, but what's even more critical is the loss of greed!

One of the most effective driving forces behind RPGs is the greed that you have, as a player, to get a more and more stronger character. That's why you go into one more dungeon before you go to bed, because you want to find a great item that gives you the edge, or gain one more level so that you can be more powerful.

Dynamic scaling takes away all that feeling of accomplishment. Why should I bother gaining one more level? It will only change the armor level of the bandits to match. Instead of being able to handle more dangerous areas of the world, or dominating easier areas or bandits, just the strengths of the random encounters will change accordingly. It is even easier to stay at your level and fight against same level creatures sometimes. This structure makes me think about the game engine, and think about the rules, and adjust my game accordingly, which pulls me out of the world I immersed in, takes off an enormous amount of pleasure.

I can notice how the encounters are modified according to my level. This triggers a very self-aware, very synthetic playing style, whereas I want to forget all game calculations and just want to be more powerful in a world I imagine myself in.

I definitely understand the logic behind dynamic scaling, but it takes a lot from the experience. I hope developers can see that in the near future.
Posted Nov 29, 2007 3:39 pm PT
The scaling for enemies is in itself something that ruins the game imo. But the real screwup they did was applying the same system for chests and loot you would find in dungeons. Come on! I do not want to fight my way past hordes of enemies, to find a couple of chests at the end of the tunnel that contains five gold pieces and a iron helmet, just because I am one level away from being able to find ten gold pieces and a steel helmet.

Morrowind was so much more of a good game. Yes, it had annoying combat, at first, and Oblivion does things better in some ways. Better AI (though it sucks really. Nothing at all as they said the Radiant AI would be) and better graphics. I'd say everything else is a step back. If only someone would mod Morrowind with better graphics, AI and slightly different combat. Then I might put another 400 hours into that game. (For the record, I only managed to put like... 40 hours ino Oblivion. With mods to fix level-scaling and such errors. It's just not a really good game in my eyes)
Posted Nov 30, 2007 1:51 am PT
Oblivion was the best RPG i've ever played and while the hardcore RPG fans might not have liked it, that doesn't mean it was a bad game but just aimed at a broader audience.

I myself loved how the levels scaled so i could play the whole game without the pointless boring grinding and leveling and i loved how i could instantly warp to locations instead of spending 10 mins running and wasting my time.

My fave thing about Oblivion was the FPS view and the immersion that no other RPG, not even Morrowind captured and i just love how it feels like such a high budget well polished game.

No RPG touches Oblivion IMO.
Posted Jan 9, 2008 6:29 am PT
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